Curtis Morrow
Photo by Steven Schapiro
As part of the research for Korea: The Unfinished War, American RadioWorks conducted almost 100 interviews with veterans and historians. We've made those interviews available here. Rough transcripts accompany each interview - but these are incomplete, and often paraphrase the speaker. The authoritative source should be seen as the audio recording, not the transcription. You can listen to and/or read the interviews -but please DO NOT QUOTE from the transcript.
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Curtis Morrow interviewed by Stephen Smith, with Dr. Gerald Early and Kate Ellis
Chicago Vets Center
Chicago, Illinois
January 2003
{Stephen Smith:} Name, where you live, unit.
{Curtis Morrow:} My name is Curtis Morrow, and friends me call me Kojo, but Curtis James Morrow. I live in Chicago, Southside and born and raised here on Southside.
{SS:} Unit, outfit?
{CM:} Unit was 24th Regiment, 25th Division.
{SS:} What was special, claim to fame?
{CM:} Never heard about the 24th before I was assigned and that was December 4, 1950 and matter of fact, never heard anything about any black regiments, all black combat teams. But the famous part, shortly after I joined, at least was assigned, was told was formerly known as Buffalo Soldiers, which was put together in 1869, right after Civil War. So I was privileged to have served the last year before it was deactivated, which was October of 1951.
{SS:} What did they do, claim to fame when put together?
{CM:} They claimed they were cavalry soldier and they was used in the West to help conquer and subdue the Indians, back in those times. They got the name from their peers, they used to wear buffalos robes and were expert riflemen, and they were good warriors. The Indians out of respect called them Buffalo Soldiers. Plus they were wooly hair, too. So they put the name on them and the name stuck all the way up to my unit
{SS:} How did you get in Korean War? You enlisted?
{CM:} Yeah, at the age of 17—started bugging mum at 16, working on her, needed her permission. At that time, you could join with parents consent. My father had decreased. On my 17th birthday, she finally gave in. I promised her heaven and everything, I would help with the family. Had six other brothers and sisters and my mother was a widow. So she signed up, I promised I’d finish school, get an education, send money home and all those things. There was nothing going on at the time, after she consulted with preachers and people in our community, she consented and I was in the service—see I joined, my birthday was on the March of 27, 1950 and was sworn in on the April 6, 1950. Basic training was 16 weeks.
At the end of basic training, April, May, June, July, the war was just starting, I wouldn’t call it a war anyway, so I was assigned to Fort Belvoir, Virginia for of all things, demolition training. And I never completed that course; I was there for maybe a month. By that time, everyone was hearing about it—police action—because the 24th Division was already there and the 25th Division, they were catching hell and so the army was sending peoples there.
I volunteered; we didn’t know what we was getting into. We figured it was a chance to get overseas, to visit some of the beautiful Japanese women and all those things. [laughs] We volunteered. About half of that school went out, volunteered for combat duty. I think we were under the impression that combat duty was like the movies we has seen, like John Wayne and so forth. It was always the other guy getting hit wounded or whatever. We all wanted to distinguish ourselves, and being a little guy, I always try to keep with the big guys. And I was kind of gung-ho. I know I was gung-ho; I was gung-ho.
{SS:} How big were you at the time?
{CM:} I was, the same height, 105 lbs, when I enlisted, that was the limit. I was 17.
{SS:} How tall?
{CM:} At that time, I probably weighed, 115, between 111 and 115. Now I weigh 125, 130 now.
{SS:} How tall?
{CM:} I’m 5’6. So anyway, I volunteered for Korea; we wanted to see some action; it was just some police action, we were told. And we wanted to see some action before it was finished, so that was one of our biggest fears, that the police action would be finished by time we got there. Anyway it wasn’t finished. And so I arrived in Korea, like I said, December 5, December 4th actually, 1950, and by that time the unit was integrated on ship and so forth. And I noticed—
{SS:} Excuse me, were you integrated in basic training too?
{CM:} Yeah we were integrated in basic training, yeah.
{SS:} Where did you do your basic training?
{CM:} Fort Riley, Kansas, it was integrated. Couldn’t have been over than 10 or 12 black troops in basic training and that was okay, we never got off base. We only got off base once, on completion, and I didn’t like it, so I wasn’t going back off base due to the racism and prejudice and so forth. And mostly the guys, the other black soldiers, they was from the South, so they were used to it, the treatment. I didn’t understand it.
So anyway, I got to Korea and everyone was lined up. My first impression was, there was no buildings standing and was a cold wintry day, about like it is here, only sky was blackish from smoke and I remember seeing no complete buildings only chimneys [laughs] It was a strange thing, see only chimneys with no walls. We smelled the gun powder, and that was what we smelled from day after all the way up to the nine months that I was there on the front. And it seemed to mix in and smelled like white phosphorus. And do we lined up and names was called out and I noticed it was all blacks in the section I fell in on. I didn’t pay attention. We began loading trucks, but first I noticed the trucks coming to pick us up, they were bringing in wounded, mostly wounded guys. I notice one truck looked like stack of duffle bags that was covered with piece of canvas, large piece of canvas. And this sort of wind blew part of the canvas, exposing what we thought was duffle bags, and it was bodies. I said, “Damn.”. We didn’t say anything; we just wonder what the heck this was all about.
{SS:} The same truck bringing you in?
{CM:} Yeah, they took us out there; they took them to the ship, unloading on the ship sending then back to the States. That was the bodies they were able to recover, most bodies, they don’t be recover. We were assigned different trucks, at that time, the Chinese, they broke loose and they just—it was a mad—well, the Army called it a strategic withdrawal, but it was just bugging out. Everybody was on they own more or less. We were being send up as replacements, my unit the 24th, George Company, 1st platoon, 1st squad that I was assigned to was in position, blocking position, to set up some sort of shield for the Chinese and North Koreans, to keep them from outflanking. Well, it wasn’t outflanking, it was from complete over—to give the guys a chance, the wounded and so forth. You see guys, walking wounded, guys with no shoes, we’re talking about, 25, 35 below zero. Was pitiful scene, you see trucks and tanks line the road; they had just been knocked out.
{SS:} All blown up.
{CM:} Blown up, yeah. And we finally got a chance to ask the guys, ask what’s happening and the guy say, “Man, its hell. Joe chink is all over the place.” And so finally, I was assigned my outfit. It was the six of us. I can’t remember all the names. Me, Maxwell, Gibson, and Albert Simpson was assigned to the first platoon. All told six of us, some of guys went to different platoons, and in the end only three came back. Me and Simpson was probably the least wounded and Maxwell he lost his legs. When we first joined it, my particular squad, those guys was like, it was one of the most—“Wow, is this for real?”
Those guys sitting round a little fire in middle of what used to be a schoolhouse. This was about eight miles north of from Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. And when new people come in, they want to know what’s happening, what’s the latest. We had shiny boots and clean fatigues and the guys looking at us and I noticed a tin can in the center and every so often one of the guys would reach in and up in a fur lined cap and pull off something and put in the can. I asked, “Oh man, these is lice. Don’t worry you’ll have your own soon.” And it was true, everyone had lice and they just stick with you and they jump around when you get near heat, they start moving around.
That was my first day and that night I remember going through a rice paddy, we were pulling back and one of the guys, a scout—name was Milton Bailey—and they stumbled up on a machine gun, I think it was a machine gun and there was two or three Chinese on a roadblock. [laughs] They set up a roadblock behind our line and that was my first action there. Just all of sudden, we started firing on them. And I remember the expression of one of the Chinese face. He had on a nice clean uniform too it seemed like. It was something to see him laying there dying. And he had been laying there waiting for us. Oh he was dead, I think all them was dead.
That night I remember seeing them. It was cloudy, but the wind was blowing the clouds and you could see the moon. And we could hear Chinese running trying to discover where we were. We were going across rice paddy, so we were warned to keep quite. And I slipped, fell off embankment and made what appeared to be a lot of noise—wasn’t probably but noise traveled far at night. That was my first chewing out, for making noise at night during a march too. Guess day after, I got quieter. But I would have left the next day if I could have, had my own plane or ship, cause people were nuts.
{SS:} Suddenly the romance was over.
{CM:} The romance was over then, you see nothing but bodies, dead bodies.
{SS:} One things you write about is that—are your first impressions when you saw the white guys going one way and the black guys going, when segregation begins.
{CM:} That kind of struck with me anyway. Strange. Whitey up to something. That wasn’t for me, cause I was 24th and 24th Regiment. That was something. You figure those guys got something up their sleeve and that’s what it was. I have no misgiving about being with the 24th. I would prefer being with them guys. Some of the greatest people I ever know. I didn’t know how great we were. Now you see it in sports and so forth, how we excelled and how we were held back. Black combat soldier, nobody wants to die, but I imagine the same thing across the boards. It just happen that I was with an all black outfit. Except the officers, and officers I experienced were good. I would follow them. In the beginning, some of the guys caught hell with them. But most of them guys that died off or been killed off or had retired. Some of the old bigots, they were out of there. But some of the younger ones, they realized their survival depended on us; we had to work as a unit. So we had a very good understanding. I can’t say any thing negative about the officers. But as a private you only know your platoon leader, he was white. Lieutenant Hoff from Oklahoma—great guy. He used to—we had a word for him—he always say, “All right guys, lets go.” He would be 25, 30 yards ahead and would have to drop back. He would always say, “Let’s go.” And we would say, “Hey man, take a lesson and you go ahead,” to ourselves anyway. But we used other words of course. He was a good soldier. He was officer; he was a soldier.
When you realize, at first you have misgivings. “Oh man, if I can do anything to get out of here,” but some cry, but after the crying, you still there and the only way to survive is teamwork and firepower of course. You become dependent on each other and you look out for each other. Especially platoon sergeants are like mother hens and platoon leaders and squad leaders, you protective of each other. But some time you just can’t help.
{SS:} When you got there, the bigots were gone or dead—did you hear of squads getting rid of officers who were dangerous to them?
{CM:} You hear that, but I never witnessed, but I’ve heard guys and I wouldn’t put it past them. Usually, some white officers have the bigotry—being with a black unit they stand out. You always want to get the leader.
{SS:} They physically stand out.
{CM:} That’s the one you want to get.
{SS:} What would be the difficulty of being the one who stands out?
{CM:} Everybody going to fire at you, the Chinese, or whoever you happen to be facing. Most of our case that would be the Chinese. The Chinese are excellent fighters. They see a white face amidst a lot of black, everybody going to take a shot at him.
{SS:} Soldiers are going to go after the officers.
{CM:} You always want to go after the leaders. We do the same thing. You see one guy leading, you can tell the leader. It’s only a momentary thing that you see, but you going to concentrate on that person there. You knock out the command and the others will fall back. It depend on who his assistant too. And their predicament there too.
{SS:} They didn’t want to stand out. You mentioned some white officers may have viewed command of a black unit as less desirable.
{CM:} Yeah, I heard that, but frankly speaking, the officers I knew, platoon leaders and company commander, they was gung-ho; they was after the ring. They were career soldiers. You can get a Purple Heart on the frontline. Combat badge. That goes a long way on resume. They weren’t that I knew. Some I couldn’t trust due to our prior experience; it comes down to survival. Officers are always in the position of sending people. If you don’t know something you going to send someone to find out, who’s there. That’s the natural position. The privilege of command and part of their duties too. We all understood that, but that goes back.
I know and we all believe—say there was a regiment and there was a major offensive and they, whether it true or not they going to say, people don’t care about black soldiers. They care less about black about black soldiers than white solders. So they can say, “Okay, we send this unit up there first to spearhead.” Or maybe, some officer would volunteer, just for his glory or some regiment commander. And we had a very gung-ho regiment CO, think his name was, Curry. He was a good soldier; He was a daredevil really. He had Purple Hearts, Silver Stars and he earned most of them wasn’t like some of the guys, they just give it to them. So he was gung-ho, so we found out, he volunteer for a lot of things too just to prove our worth.
Like I said we were good soldiers, but no none going to write about our history, cause they’re too busy writing their own history. And they need someone to blame and they did often in Korea. So they either blamed. The 24 Infantry Regiment which was all black or the Puerto Ricans and the ROK, we were the fall guys.
{SS:} The Republic of Korea Army?
{CM:} Hmmm, them guys. Now it’s just coming out. The Afro Americans, we won the first victory there. That was on the Yechon. We made an amphibious boat landing across the Han River and that was major accomplishment. Even Ritchie wrote about that. He had never experienced such—during all his years during the Second World War and he was very impressed and he wrote about that in one of his articles. We didn’t get credit for it; there’s a lot we didn’t get—‘cause when we return, we just try to get on with your life. I’m guilty of that. How can you tell about war? You gonna tell your children, grandchildren about things you done in war. The glamour had worn off and we faced reality and we realized that people die in war and they don’t die—it’s not a pretty death and it’s mostly the innocent, the women and the babies. But at that time you don’t’ think about that, you just busy doing what you’re told to do. At that time they just gooks or whatever term you gonna put on them. They don’t have any method of concealing themselves. The soldiers are dug in. they take care of themselves. They were trained to dig in and stay concealed and not run around and not panic. The civilians, they just run.
{SS:} They were like chickens.
{CM:} They don’t know which way to go. They were just panicking
{SS:} They just run around.
{CM:} You all set up having dinner, and all you hear is a lot of noise and buildings start being blown apart and the sky turns black and people running and screaming. People trying to grab babies and next thing you see, and next thing you see, is a wild-eyed soldier running in with weapons chasing someone. So that’s why I have a lot of sympathy for the Iraqis. It’s worse now that it was then there you could just bout see the enemy, Korea we saw them everyday. We attack and they usually counter attack at night. We saw each other. We had targets at each other. It’s not that. You so busy firing; you usually just shooting that muzzle blasts.
{SS:} But you had to get close.
{CM:} You got close. By the time they fall, they like we are there. You always surprised, how did they get so close.
{Gerald Early:}Mr. Morrow, I’ve used your book in my classes. Students enjoyed reading your book. I’m going to ask you a couple of questions that the students actually raised. You say you were born and raised in Chicago, but you talk about going to see mother in Michigan —your family left Chicago at some point?
{CM:} My father, mother and father separated. I was about nine years old. Me and my brother, the brother who followed me and my sister, we stayed with our father. The youngest brother went with my mother—he was just a little baby. When my father took ill, he couldn’t take care of us, we went to live with out mother. I live with mother from 12 to the time I joined the Army. So I was in Michigan when I joined the service, my father passed, when I was 13 or 14 when he died. That’s how I happen to be in Michigan.
{GE:} Why did you want to join the army?
{CM:} I always been adventurous, if I reflect back, I was— My grandfather was born in 1849, he was 12 years old when the Civil War began. This is falling back a minute. And every summer, he would come up north and he would visit us. And he would tell us about when he was our age, he was a slave. And would tell us about, he ran away and looking for the Union Army, he didn’t want to be a slave and so forth. This guy died in 1951, I was in Korea. But I would promise him that I was going to travel and I was going to join the Army. Or elders ask you, “What are you going to do when you grow up?” and I would say, “I want to be a soldier. I want to travel; I want to see the world.” We had a global map and I would spin the map and point to different areas and Grandpa would tell me the continent. And we got to Africa and I said, “Grandpa, that’s where I want to go, Africa.” And he told me about his grandfather who was from Africa. He gave a brief on how slaves got to America. So that opened my eyes to other parts of the world. Another favorite place [laughs] was Japan, I don’t know why. [laughs] I was impressed by the samurai warriors and so forth. So I promised Grandpa. And the only way I could travel anyway was to join the service. And that’s what I wanted to do. That’s how I joined the Army. I wanted to join the Navy, but I couldn’t swim, [laughs] and I understand that the opportunities were less. I didn’t want to be a servant or no steward. So I chose the Army and that’s how I happened to get into the army. I enjoyed it. The army was great. I liked it. I liked the discipline.
I enjoyed it. But the only thing was the racism. The moment you step off that base, you gonna be challenged. And it’s gonna be by the village nitwit, the dumbest dude in the area gonna come up and call you a nigger or something. Or, “Boy, that uniform don’t mean nothing.” You know. Some of the guys had to remove their uniforms to go off base. But on base, that was real salute. But we weren’t no threat to those officers there. I could say they were pretty liberal in my exposure to them.
{SS:} Going off base was the first time you experienced that kind of racism?
{CM:} That was the first time. In fact the first time. It was real distinguished at the basic training I was sent to Fort Belvoir, Virginia. We rode, we called it the Silver Streak Train to Baltimore. In Baltimore, we had to change trains. We’re white and black, everybody on the same train. We had a 15-minute break, a stopover. And we’re coming out, all the guys, and we all happy and high spirited and I see a porter standing there with my duffle bag. And I say—everybody got their name on their duffle bag, you know— “Hey man, that’s my bag.” He say, “We gonna move you to another car.” I say, “That’s the car, we all going to the same place” He say, “No son.” He had to duty of explaining to me Jim Crowism and why I was being moved. That astonished me. I was very, very surprised. He could see could see I was swelling and he said, “Come on son.” And we went one car behind, at that time, this particular train had a coal burner, one of those old coal burners. It was the first car behind the, [engine] so once that train got going, all the soot. Plus the seats were wood. And it was all just black peoples in there. I noticed a lot of women. They couldn’t eat, so they would carry their little bags with them. That’s one thing that impressed me, their fried chicken. They would say, “Come on son.” And they would share their fried chicken with me. It was good chicken, very good. They would laugh and say, “Oh don’t worry, this shit ain’t gonna last too long; we gonna get rid of all this stuff. You soldiers, you don’t have anything to do with it.” They trying to apologize for the—
But then I noticed at Fort Belvoir, that’s right in DC, that’s where we went for our pass. I noticed the color-only signs in the capital. Usually two or three of us go together, you have one running buddy. And the guy that I ran around with, he was from the south, so he knew and he would point out things to me. He would say, “Ah man, we don’t want to go there.” But the places we went was nice. We had our own thing going, blacks. Which was, I didn’t have no problem. I was raised on the Southside, that was black community. We had every thing we needed; we were protected. And in Michigan we had a select community in Buchanan Michigan there. So actually, we felt very content being among ourselves. But the thing was, here you are a soldier, you know, out serving your country and you’re still going to be segregated against. That was—that was a hard nut to crack, there really.
One good thing about D.C., at that time you could just walk through the White House. There was red banners for areas you couldn’t go, but. You might see one secret service guy standing there. No problem. You can just walk all through the place. Now, I was there last year and it’s barricaded like a fort.
{SS:} George Bush doesn’t want you running off with silverware.
{CM:} Silverware, yeah. [laughs] Probably get worse than that.
That was my impression of—Until after my combat experience, then I was brought back to the hospital. First I was in the hospital for about a week or two weeks. It was just battle fatigue. Then I was assigned to a demolition outfit down there, engineering outfit down there. It was pretty good. We just did mostly rock quarries blasting it. There was reconstruction, bridges, rock quarries for road construction.
{SS:} Civilian stuff really.
{CM:} Construction work. That could have been okay, but I wanted to come home. After my furlough home—I cut that short even too because the first day or two, after I returned. I was visit by the local paper, we only had a small paper in Waja (sp?) Michigan there. He came out and interview me and took my picture and everything and I was like a hero. That’s when I found out I had a brown star. [laughs] Next day of course, I was famous of course—all the girls. That was good; I had all the girls. Then the selected service officer draft was in place then. They asked me to come to school and talk about my experience. I went once and I noticed right off, that even with my brother, I’m trying to explain the horror of war. And new guys are going down volunteering. I said, “That’s the last thing, I want to see you doing.” They will say, “You made it, so we can make it.” So you can never tell a young person anything when it comes to that. Unless they already have their head on. So I decided I wasn’t even going to finish my leave. I reported back to the base. Cut short a week out of 30 days.
{SS:} You found yourself a recruiting tool that you didn’t want to be—
{CM:} I didn’t want to do that. I just wanted to finish my two years and get my discharge and get out of there, see. But I was being assigned to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and wow, that was a hellhole. I didn’t want to spend two years down there. So the only way for me to get out of there—I found later out through a friend—we call it “FUP,” “Fuck up.” You know what I mean? This guy come up and he say, “I just got my walking papers and I got my papers.” He had been able to sign a wavier to go back overseas and the only way you could do that was to screw up. Cause they wanted us there was cadre mens, to train new recruits and so forth so I say, “Wow, [snap] that’s what I’ll do.” I decided to disobey a direct order which was KP.
Now that time, we just in a repo where we hadn’t been assigned to any particular unit. There was people with sergeants and corporals and so everybody had to pull KP duty. Wasn’t that bad, just washing dishes, whatever. But I saw it as an opportunity to screw up. I didn’t think it would be a serious as it would turn out to be. So I disobeyed the direct order, first from the platoon sergeant and he say, “Morrow, you sure you know what you doing?” And I said, “Sure, I know.” “Alright” Later that day, I was brought before that the company commander and he say, “You’re a soldier, you’ve been to Korea and all that. You know better.” I say, “Sir, I refuse to go to mess hall.” And he say, “Why?” So I told him, “Well, because, I’ve been on twice this week.” Or that weekend. That didn’t make no different. So he say, “Okay, you suffer the consequence.” So he put me up for a general court marital. I went through the procedure of a general court-martial. But due to my record, my combat record, they reduced down to a special and sentenced me to six months. Once in the stockade, I got the wind, the stockade breeze, “Oh man, you can soldier you’re way out of here.” So I soldier my way out of the stockade, I got out on good behavior. Three months and five days which meant I had to make up that time. So after three months, close to three months, I was released from the stockade and I signed a wavier and was sent back overseas. Now you still taking a chance, cause the war was still going on.
{SS:} You thought you going to Japan or that’s where you were hoping to go—
{CM:} That’s where I went, they could have sent us to Korea, but they gave us a sort of choice like. Especially combat veterans. I was assigned to an airborne outfit, the 881st, a re-supply and packing company, a company of the 187 Airborne for two years. I really liked that. You jump out of planes. And wear jump boots and go to town and get drunk and chase the girls all over. It was nice. Actually it was a rigger outfit. That was nice. That was integrated. We had about eight blacks in that unit too. Troopers. The majority of them had taken their jump training in the states at Fort Benny. They gave us a nice group of guys. The worst thing about that was since it was a rigger outfit, we rig out supplies and containers and heavy equipment and drop it off in strategic areas, mostly in Korea, but sometimes making drop in Indochina. Now it’s Vietnam. Kind of scary, sometime we see bullet holes in planes. You have to drop down pretty low, 350 feet or maybe, the airdrops, to keep your stuff from being spread out. But it was good. Like in the wintertime, the runway be so slippery and the planes cause we drop water. The containers would leak and you would slip out of there, you wouldn’t even have a chance to open up your shoot. You were gone. Other than that, it was a nice tour. I like that.
{Kate Ellis:} When you got to Korea, you realized that you wanted to go back, that war was not what you thought it was. At what point, did your political views start to develop— when you started to struggle with the irony of being black soldier fighting for America and there was still Jim Crow and racism.
{CM:} I think I had been on the frontline for at least four months. I had turned 18. And I think I got it from older soldiers. Because otherwise I was politically naïve. I didn’t know anything. I couldn’t distinguish between Republicans and Democrats. I had never voted. I had no idea about politics then. They never taught us that during the service. They just, we fighting for freedom, justice and all the rhetoric. But it was about that time. I had been on the front for four months, listening to some of the older, more educated guys. I thought those guys—anyone who spoke against what we were doing there was more or less looked down on. That was during the McCarthy Era. Must be a communist or he must be brainwashed by the communist. Was a passing thought. Another thing that help bring it to my attention was—we all had propaganda. America, we our planes would fly over the enemy area and would broadcast to the Chinese and North Koreans, trying to get them to surrender. And they would do likewise; they would explode shells with leaflets and on those leaflets. I know we all saw those pictures, of a black man being hung and a bunch of white faces eating popcorn and little kids jeering and laughing. And in the caption, they would have, “Why are you here?” “Why are you fighting us?” “Is this what you fighting for?” That was really touching. That was something.
{SS:} That affected you?
{CM:} That affected us.
{SS:} That propaganda was effective?
{CM:} Mmmm, but not enough to surrender. They give you the words of, I think, “Shoshon,” “I surrender.” Come over to the other side and you be treated fairly and all that. I don’t recall anyone ever surrendering, not a black soldier. I never heard of anyone in my unit. Now guys had been captured, but not surrendering.
{SS:} Sounds like for those receiving this information from the sky, it really deepened the thing for you.
{CM:} It deepened it. It make us come more and more aware. And then Thurgood Marshall came over too. That was also an enlightening experience too, because a lot of guys, you could get court-martialed for little or nothing. If an officer write someone up. I imagine he would get so much time off of the line to go and present his case. It be something like a feather in his cap. So you could get rid of—Usually they would use us, which is still happening, as examples. Like if a new law or regulation come up, we want to enforce this regulation, so we gonna get this black guy here and make an example of out of him. So you are no better. So we were always used as examples too. And for then you know, for fall guy. That’s why a lot of the historical facts are very off base, cause the interviewer, they never interviewed us. They only interviewed the white soldiers. Usually there was some pre-ex, had eight or ten bills and he say, “Them niggers, they bug out” and so forth. And actually the term, bug out, actually that alluded to the 24th Division. Those guys were getting annihilated over there and they were bugging out. Even from the general on down. I think the General Dean or Walker, not Walker, Dean. They were—I mean, when you look around you don’t see anything but the other guys, the enemy. That’s a horrible feeling. I thought it used to be in our minds.
All of a sudden, you’re fighting up a hill and you look up and you see four or five Chinese or North Koreans with their weapons pointed at you. What would you do? And you only have a split second to think, what would you do. And it all depends do they want you for a prisoner, cause they all lost friends and family too. The chances are you going to get killed. You gonna get shot. And we do the same thing, lost two or three buddies trying to take a position and all of a sudden a guy jump up, and they usually going to be as close as you are to that table. Jump up with the hands straight up. And your reflex, you usually snap off a shot at them. You don’t want to do it if an officer—officers usually want prisoners for information. They all have information. It’s something you always have to bear in mind. What would do? And we’d discuss that among ourselves. Would you drop your weapon? Or try and take a couple of them with you. And you don’t really know. Now I can say, I would go down fighting, but you never really know.
You know that’s something else about heroism too. You hear stories about guys doing things, outstanding things. That would entitle them to a metal Brown, Silver, Metal of Honor, but you never know what you would do till you really face to face with the situation. Cause everybody trying to save their own neck. But something takes over you, I guess it’s in all of us. You get the feeling like, “F’ it.” It’s like playing football, you just charge in and you figure you can make it. And if you’re successful, you become a great guy, you become a hero.
Myself, when I got that Bronze Star, I didn’t know it. I didn’t know I was recommended for it at the time. We were going up this hill. I had been on the front maybe six months. The mountains in Korea—you had to crawl up the mountains in Korea. The Chinese would leave one guy, sometimes one soldier in a key position where you could off a whole company. That was that particular incident. This guy, Chinese soldier had knocked off three of our people and at least two were killed. Me and Red, that what we called the guy, name was Leon Warren, we decided we were going to get him. We devised a little plan. I said, “Red, you going to crawl up along the ridge.” Got to claw his way up. “And I’ll attract his fire.” We had no idea he had a machine gun. Red was going to crawl around the bank of the hill or the mountain and I was walking up ridgeline to attract his fire. Some silly plan, stupid plan [laugh] the hill had a lot of underbrush, usually the aircraft had shot down most of the trees. And I’m going up this hill in a crouch position and all of a sudden I see this face about the end of the couch there, just come up, not that close, probably that box right there.
{INT:} About 15 feet.
{CM:} About 15 feet away and this guy was doggying on my big boarder and I remember he had on a GI helmet liner. There was a little bush right in front of his position. He could have had it there for his field of fire and he had a gap between his teeth. We saw each other at same time and we began firing our weapons. I had an M-1 which is a singer shot and he had what we call a “burt gun” something like a submachine gun. We start firing at each other and I felt some his bullets. I could feel air going through my trouser leg. Then I heard someone say, “Get down, get down.”
And I just flipped backwards and then I heard a hand grenade. Red threw a hand grenade. He threw the hand grenade and it bounced off. That was ominous. I lay there a few seconds. And a few guys caught up and said, “Are you alright, you hit?” And I said, “No, I ain’t hit.” I was just tired. After we walked up and I noticed this dude had a hole right here, in the center of his head. I remember stalling there for just a second. I really admired him. I never forget this guy facial expression, on his face. And I always feel that, if I have to die, this is the way I want to die. I imagine we all have that thought, although nobody really want to die. But if I die, I want to die as a man. Because the last impression I would leave would be with my buddies, those who witnessed my death and perhaps someday they might meet with some member of my family who asked them, “How did he die?” And they wouldn’t have to lie.
{INT:} What was expression on his face? Describe it.
{CM:} His eyes were still open. The impression I got when I first saw him, the split second before we started shooting at each other was—he looked like someone 13, 14 years old. That was what the impression. He looked so young. But you saw my picture there. I had never even shaved; I had never had a razor on my face. I didn’t have any hair. I was smooth as a baby’s skin. That was how young this guy looked.
{INT:} You both looked like babies.
{CM:} Like babies fighting babies. It wasn’t the first time, but that was one of the time that really stuck in my mind.
{GE:} Why did you write the book?
{CM:} I wrote that book. The reason I wrote that book was. I had a nephew who joined the service. This was really one reason—cause I always said I wanted to write. I used to promise my grandpa that one of these days, I was going to write books, travel and get experience, come back and write books. So what got me into doing it was my nephew joined the service and he finished basic training and was being sent to Korea. Oh boy, that must have been 1980 somewhere in there. And he came back and was telling the family, he was assigned to some camp there in South Korea. His sister who had just finished high school thought that Korea was a city in Texas and so she said, “Oh you’re not going to like Texas.” She had never heard of Korea before. And we laughed. Kids do, you know. And she said, “You been to Korea?” and I said, “Yeah, I was there.” She said, “Nobody ever told me about no Korea. You been there and you never tell us anything about it.” I realized that I had never told them anything. Just that I was in the army and I had been in army, served in Korea. I might have mentioned that I had been in combat, but never went into any detail. So she said, “You should write a book.” And it came out like that. I got to thinking about it more and more. So I decided to tackle it. Took three years, start and stop. This stuff - what would people think, people’s minds. Especially at the end, I had a computer and I’m watching my life appear on a monitor. And I’m thinking, “Gosh,” so I just wrote it. I got encouragement from other people, writers and so forth.
{INT:} The guys you served with encouraged?
{CM:} No, I hadn’t met any other guys since I’d been out of the service that I had, you know. Now when I started working on the book was when I began to look around cause I had to put things in a chronological order. I remember incidents. Then I would apply to VFW Magazine and noticed articles about reunions about the 24 Infantry Regiment was trying to reorganize the former members into an association. That’s how I happened join up with them. I attended the second meeting that we had in South Carolina. By then I was getting into it. Then I made a trip to D.C. to the military archives to confirm dates and so forth. One thing led to another and it began to grow on me. I never had any writing. I was an artist, a jewelry designer, that’s my whole thing in life. So that’s a new art, new skill, a new media that I’m still learning. But I’m amazed at what words can do, paint pictures. So I got involved in it. I had to learn to type, I’m still learning. All the things you should know about putting books together and then helping to promote them. I’m glad. The title is another thing. You know I didn’t really create the title. But it’s a passage in the book.
My title was, “A Black Warrior In Korea” That was the title in my mind. I had no problem getting a publisher. And one of the editors suggested that we used that as the title. I liked the idea because I didn’t want it to be focus on me cause it’s not my story only, it’s any combat veteran story. I like this title. I agree to the title which it could be turnoff to some people. People like to hear titles like, “To Hell and Back” some gung-ho title to work with propaganda to encouraging young people to come into the service like is still going on.
{GE:} It’s political, probably attracts and turns off.
{SS:} Whole lot more political than “A Black Warrior in Korea”
{CM:} Yeah. So title is there now. Pretty good, ‘cause it’s not in bookstores. Bookstore would have to purchase the book really. They have their own distributors really. Main thing on my part is to get the message out. I wish people could realize the reality of war. It’s something that you never forget. This is a guerilla thing, you can see things. How many people are preaching war? The hawkish-people. How many of them visit veteran hospitals? You can see guys from the First World War. It was much more brutal than they are now. The Second World War, the Korean War was the last conventional war. Vietnam was probably a very frustrating war. Somebody pop up and throw a hand grenade and you don’t even see them. They dug into the ground. They can come up into your foxhole.
{SS:} Korea was the last war with a frontline.
{CM:} Right with frontline, conventional war. Now with so-called war, it’s really murder. You bomb the heck out of people for 40 days and you still don’t get the guy you’re looking for. Somebody dying cause they much more powerful than in the Korean war. You see whole towns leveled off.
{SS:} Given title was not your first choice, is this a book about war is hell or is it a book about a black man’s role in a war, the irony of being black soldier?
{CM:} All of the above, it’s all of the above, but especially a black man’s view cause I participated in it and not just I, but we were. All three of those categories.
{SS:} So part of it was setting the record straight about the 24th?
{CM:} Yeah, sure. I’m quite sure of that because my view and myparticipation in war is not what I’ve heard others say who were not in that particular outfit. Cause there is only one person, there was Colonel Carlisle and Bussey. They wrote a book, “Firefight in Yechon” and there was Lieutenant—he was a lieutenant, but retired as a captain, Lyle Rishel. Although, he was white now. He wrote from his experience of dealing it. His book is factious. Was anyone else? One other guy.
{SS:} One or two other guys who wrote parts of their books, but they were critical of the 24th but never served with it.
{CM:} No they weren’t in it. Appleman
{SS:} Ray Appleman.
{CM:} He never went—he got his information from PX beer halls like most historians. That’s all they really had to go on, is the facts that they go on, so called facts they go on. For instance, we go on a patrol, and we run into some Chinese or North Koreans and we exchange fire. You probably, in most cases, I don’t recall seeing anyone we hit. You going out and you make contact and you exchange fire for a couple minutes and you have to go back cause you know the enemy is there. You don’t know how many you hit, maybe one or two, but when you get back you going to turn in and say, “well, we got three. We got three wounded up there.” And that’s company headquarters, by the time that information get back to battalion headquarters, it’s six, and by the time it get to regiment headquarters, it’s twelve. [laugh] All that is necessary to replenish our supply. Okay, they killed twelve, so this is how much ammunition and clothing. So we always boost the amount. So that’s what the historians really have to work with when they putting together information.
{GE:} Did you read the official account about 24th?
{CM:} No, what I got was—casualties?
{GE:} No, there was a book put out by the Army, story about integration the army, Black Soldier, White Army.
{CM:} I read that one.
{GE:} What did you think?
{CM:} I found to be pretty accurate as far as I could see. Pretty accurate. There’s one part, I have to go back and check it out, when we made the amphibious landing on the Han River. They said we were pushed back 1500 yards and that’s impossible because we would have been in the middle of the Han River. I remember being pushed back, oh maybe, a couple hundred yards. So we were halfway down the hill and you couldn’t camp there, you got to get up the hill. So we had to go back up there. That’s the only time I remember and I was right there all the time, the whole trip. I guess some things get exaggerated.
{SS:} Follow up on Han River—tell the story of that engagement, where you were and who you were with.
{CM:} The first time I became familiar with the Han River was—I really didn’t know what it was leading up to. We were sent on a patrol and I was a point man, the guy up front, and it was a platoon patrol and we had a platoon leader with us. We advanced up to position, did we see some fire. I think we did, think we ran into two or three Chinese on a outpost somewhere and we exchanged fire and by that time we reached the top of that hill. From a prone position, I could see the river, the Han River. It was winter, so it was just about froze over. I don’t know if we hit anyone or not. We caught a prisoner. Right. We caught a prisoner. That was my first exposure to the Han River.
{SS:} So you saw the Han River.
{CM:} So saw the Han River. Was my first time seeing the Han River ‘cause I know we had crossed it before. Then we were pulled back in reserve. Maybe once a month they pull your unit back and you get a chance to take a shower and change clothes. That’s once a month if you’re lucky. And new ammunition and weapon check and so forth. During that R&R trip, we were introduced to the plan that was coming to recapture Seoul. So we were put through training on how to paddle across the river. I think we was using the shovels, cause didn’t have enough paddles. I was with the trainer, although for the actual crossing we had the amphibious boats manned by Navy personnel. We were put through that training. At the end of that, maybe three or four days, we began our trip back to the north. Usually with trucks, they take you so far in trucks. By that time, rumors are all over that we going to recapture Seoul. There be a whole lot of rumors. We get to this position and was told our particular objective would be bombard with 10,000 rounds before we even crossed the river.
And we got to our position on the opposite side of our objective something like four o’clock that morning, just before daybreak and we could see that mountain, that big monstrous looking mountain. It looked like a Christmas tree, you could see the flashes from the artillery shells. This is with heavy stuff right. It had been bombed before. Before we even arrived at that point. Then as we lined up to join the unit they [snap] the amphibious boat we were assigned to. Here everybody looking at you. First they give you a change to pray, they always before a major battle like that. There be time set aside you could go and whatever religious denomination you was part of, you could go and say your prayers and whatever. I didn’t go there. By that time, I didn’t believe in nothing but myself. [laugh] I figure all that stuff man, really. I came up with a whole different concept of religious then. We were assigned these amphibious boats.
I felt so helpless as the boat was crossing the Han River. You could see. You look down at the water when you could because we inside, you know. It looked like raindrops. It wasn’t raining but bullets striking the river. Also bouncing off the side of the amphibious boat and penetrating. I kept the first time damn, I can’t even swim, [laugh] Ah heck. A couple of guys scream cause I guess they get hit. We were packed in there. Finally we get to other side. They just want to get you out of there and get the hell out of there—the operators of the amphibious boats.
{SS:} The Navy guys want you out of there?
{CM:} They wanted to get out of there. So some of the boats were dropping short. You step off that boat and you might go down in about four or five feet of water. With your pack on and your weapon. You got at least 45 lbs, I imagine you’re carrying 45 lbs. I stepped off maybe three feet deep and I found myself nearly panicking because the water came up to here on me and it was cold. But you can’t—there’s people pushing you, “Let’s go, let’s go” By that time all hell is breaking loose, “Let’s go”. When you hit start running toward that mountain, your helmet slipping toward your face and you just began shooting. Guys dropping around you and you just keep going. We made it across the little opening, but then we had to go up the ridgeline and by that time, me and Red. We were in the same squad, Leon Warren. There was fire coming out of what we found out to be a viaduct, a railroad viaduct which was made into a bunker. And me and Red shot, we ran over there, in that direction. It just seemed like you be possessed. And everybody screaming and hollering, “go, go, go” and you shooting everything. We fired some shots and we threw a hand grenade in there. By time we ran in there, I think there was two or three guys in there, must have been three. They were dead, but one was still alive. He was laying on his back on a bench or something. They build it or construct it in someway in there. I remember this guy, he seemed like he had a look of defiance on his face. I don’t know if he was just bubbling because slobber was coming out, or if he was attempting to spit on us, at us. That just split-second stuff [snap] and then you have some soldier, “Okay, let’s go, let’s go.” So we had to go, we left. I have a lot of respect for that.
It gets to the point that you have a lot of respect for your enemy, especially when you see someone go down fighting. You see a guy go down fighting. Regardless of who he is. So then we have to make it up that mountain there. That was another trip. Then at night. First before that night, we dug in. First you assigned a position, we dug in, get ammunition and C rations. That night on the other side of the river, there was searchlights. I don’t know what they are. Searchlights, you know. And the searchlights pinpointed a position that was occupied by Fox Company. Fox Company is part of the 2nd Battalion. Then I heard antiaircraft fire. They were shooting on them. ‘Cause you always get friendly fire is what they call it. The next day I saw all those guys, there was thirteen guys that were dead. That’s what they said, thirteen of them. I remember looking at them as we was pulling on to another position further on down the ridgeline. They looked like they were sleeping. They had covered them with ponchos. I never forget that.
That night, finally the Chinese, we were expecting them to counter—Just getting a little ahead, but that night when they counterattacked us, I was. Me and Red was dug in together and usually it’s two men to a hole. You see the red flare first. You’re hearing bugles blowing back there. A green flare, then a red flare. It seem like a firework, it arch across the sky. By that time, the Chinese just halfway up the hill. They crawl up those mountainsides you know. We didn’t have time to put up barbed wire because— Next thing, it seemed like the 4th of July, everybody firing at the same time. You see muzzle blasts from their side, see it from our side. They aim at that.
I remember the first time I recall seeing someone. Sometimes some of those guys, they get hit and they just keep on moving towards you. I remember seeing this, probably more than one from the corner of my eye, as they run past my hole. [pause] Gosh, but you so into what you doing, to turn back and to try and get him would be—you leave yourself so wide open. But usually they hit, but he just hadn’t collapsed yet, they get through all that. That was a heck of a night, a real hell of a night. We lost some guys that night too. I don’t recall how many. About seven if I’m not mistaken. That’s in my platoon. I don’t know how many was wounded. But we held the position. The next morning, you just be amazed, “Damn.” You look. You see all the damage.
{SS:} How many days were you up there?
{CM:} On the Han River? What was happening then was the United Nations recapturing the Seoul for the last time too. So we were there, pushing north, so we was up there. That whole engagement took about close to a week at least. Of course, we were advancing too, pushing the enemy back all the way up. We went beyond the 38th parallel, right in the area of the Iron Triangle, in that area, Pork Chop Hill. All that was up in that general area. About a week or so. That was before we were pulled off. By that time everyone was beat. You need to come back, take a bath, change clothes. Everything.
{SS:} Think the Army used the 24th differently than other regiments because the troops were black?
{CM:} From my vantage point, from what I have observed and from the information I have gathered now as I’m older, I don’t think so. I think we were all just used. Period. I still wouldn’t overlook the fact that just—send them guys, see. We were suspicious cause of the association with whites, here, in the country, in the homeland. And so naturally, we were suspicious. I don’t doubt for one minute that that didn’t happen, but I couldn’t just say so myself. I think everybody died. I think the marines got the real—People teach people how to die. You get so caught up in something; you think you got to do this because this is traditional. You go into suicide situations and it’s a great thing they say, for soldiers to go and die. I don’t have any thing personal against—I think war is just, in some cases it was just like the Second World War. I don’t know much about the First World War. But the first two. The First, the Second, the Civil War, I think that was a very just war. So wars prior to Vietnam.
Now even Korea, I would think the Koreans really benefited. I went back last year, 2001, out of curiosity, to see if we were appreciated as we were then by the Koreans. So they really benefited. And big business of course benefited. My mother was able to get a house for the first time. People had jobs. Those are the people who benefit. The civilians, family members and even the victim’s family, with that insurance. At that time, it was 10,000 dollars. I don’t know what it is now. Sure they sad they lost their loved one, but 10 grand go a long way. Probably more than that now. [pause] We had a saying, “Old men make war and young people fight and die in there” And that was really the case, people who were making the war, they didn’t have any personal experience in actually wars themselves. They only going by the books and movies, which is all fixed up. Used as propaganda. This is with all counties. We are what we are because of war, at this time, because of someone else going out and making the supreme sacrifice.
{SS:} How did the integration of military in Korea affected the lives of black people in this country?
{CM:} A real positive effect. We have people like Colin Powell now. I never dreamt that there would be a black general. Well, there was a couple black generals. But to become the joint chief of staff. He went through all kinds of trials and test and so forth. I don’t think they want nobody. I don’t think no Tom or bootlicker can reach a position like that. To even be a general, an officer maybe. You really have to prove your worth. You’re responsible for people’s lives, men and women now. So for that effect it had a positive effect. I think in general although I hate war now, but I see the benefits in it whether I agree with them or not.
{SS:} How did the war affect you as a black American?
{CM:} It built up my self-confidence in myself. Hmmm. That and also the fact that I left the country after this, I lived in another country, Africa for ten years. That also helped to build up my self-esteem. You come to realization that you responsible for yourself. And the bottom line is that nobody owed me nothing. Although I could feel that, that I’ve done more than you’ve done or she done for this country. But then you probably got a few family members who have done the same. That was part of making us what we are. As a race, we benefited and as a country, we benefited. The first time you ever see a helicopter rescuing a wounded soldier. Now it’s all over. In an accident, they can take you by helicopter to the hospital in quicker time. Lot of discoveries made from war efforts. I wish there was a better way and there probably is but I don’t know. People probably don’t know. There’s too much to lose, like jobs and so forth [laugh]
{SS:} Anything to add, folks should know about Korea?
{CM:} The only thing I would add is that freedom is not free. Someone else fight and died for that freedom and privilege that we are enjoying now. My advice to younger generation is to know something about your political situation and why people feel the way they do about you, about us. We all in this together. If this ship ever sink, I think of this country as a ship, warship or carrier, ever it ever sink, everyone on it will go down. They are not looking at you and saying, “Okay, you black or you white or you yellow or you red.” You’re American, see. So for those of us who disagree with the different political decisions that are made, it’s up to us to make a stand. Cause soldiers, military people—they don’t make war. So it’s up to the civilians, the voters to voice their agreements or disagreements. Because that’s one great thing about this country, we do have a voice. Whether nobody listen to you or not. People probably don’t pay attention. Some people just say, “That guy. What does he know.”
{SS:} Thank you.
END
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